„No reasonable, psychologically normally assessed humans without tendency to the self-manifestation are able to pray if it a whole church looks in the face. “Of Don Reto Nay.

(kreuz.net) the question, whether the Roman-catholic priest is to celebrate the holy fair to the believers or to God, is discussed in the catholic area for decades.

It is interesting that in this argument to today above all historical arguments dominate, as if the Zelebrationsrichtung would be essentially inconsequential as such for the celebration of the fair and the participation to it.

Certainly historical observations supply a reference on it whether an innovation is compatible with the whole one of the liturgical building.

The question about the Zelebrationsrichtung the holy fair nevertheless concerns not primarily church history, but also the present and material liturgical execution and the effects on it.

Actually the influence, which in the 60's the introduced Zelebration of the holy fair exerts on a so-called people altar on the Liturgie and God experience of the believers and the priest, can not be overrated at all.

But most strongly the priest is concerned. That is to be stated briefly.

The visitor of the living rooms of the holy Philip Neri (1515-1595) over the Chiesa Nuova in Rome the measuring cup of the holy one is shown, at whose edge biting traces are visible.

Philip Neri obviously tended to be overwhelmed with the receipt of the blood of Christ during the fair of such seizureness that he bit thereby into the measuring cup. Of pious priests it was reported in former times also again and again that they broke out with the Zelebration the fair frequently in tears.

It is obvious that contemporary priests in the regime of the Zelebration may not take the liberty such outbreaks to the people any longer.

One imagines a Zelebranten, which in-howls during a Eucharistiefeier at the people altar suddenly, of holy seizureness seized, in the microphone or bites into the cup. Rightfully such a behavior was understood as show and unacceptable self-manifestation.

A personal, completely on God opened Mitfeiern of the priest with the holy fair, not only as „chiefs “, but also as receiving creditors, was still possible, as the Zelebrant and its face with the public measuring celebration, to the gentleman turned, to hide itself could.

One remembers: As the prophet Elijah the quiet, gentle Säuseln of God heard, veiled it its face with its coat (1 Kön 19.13).

But in the era of the people altar these times belong to the past.

The priest is compelling to celebrate into the eyes of the present God people and must thereby to his public unconditionally submit.

In „the North American seminar for priests “in Rome around it with the Zelebrationsübungen before priest-dedicate - rightfully - camera photographs begun, in order to give to the future priest an impression of it, how it affects its public.

The priest, who must celebrate of the people altar into the church inside, stands nolens volens under the obligation to sit up a mask.

Most will drive a middle course around it for pastoralen reasons into expression and gesturing.

Not too piously, in addition, not too indifferently. Best neutralessentially. Behind this mask the priest will try to hide its personal participation the holy fair.

There are naturally also priests, who endeavor itself to break through this mode.

But the more a Zelebrant tries, which inspired, seizure, to represent or low-digging the more gets the believers - and perhaps also the priests themselves - which feeling of the artificial one, putting on and produced one. Why?

Because the meeting with God after the words of the mountain lecture into the Intimität of the quiet chamber (Mt 6.6) and not before the television camera belongs.

The priest, who must celebrate to the people, absolutely is around it in a little envy-worth and unbiblischen situation. By right in the modern church linguistic usage on the theological term „to therefore celebrate “, „celebrate “done without and instead the political-passive term „manage “, „preside “preferentially.

Nobody can serve two gentlemen, is called it in the mountain lecture. That is valid also for the priest. It will have itself to decide whether it celebrates before the gentleman or sits before the believer. The Eucharistiefeier turned to the people decided for second.

But thus it is refused, personal the priest, eye in eye with God to celebrate the holy fair. No reasonable, psychologically normally assessed humans without tendency to the Exhibitionismus or to the self-manifestation are able to pray if it a whole church looks in the face.

With the prayer of views of humans to turn away, a question of the Schamhaftigkeit is.

Therefore it does not need an explanation, why the mountain lecture prescribes for the Beter to withdraw itself into the lonely chamber.

This chamber was generally manufactured in latin rite in former times by the turn of the priest to the Tabernakel. By a Zelebration of the fair to the people it is destroyed.

That is the understandable reason for the today ascertainable Bürokratisierung and/or Sentimentalisierung of the celebration of the holy fair in the new rite.

More conservatively oriented priests become the texts in reserved objectivity in the microphone in-read, while more progressively oriented of clergyman tries to express frequently the mentioned emotional aspect.

It is obvious that the Zelebration of the fair does not exclude such bureaucratic attitudes or artificial Sentimentalisierungen to the gentleman.

The problem consists however of that what in the Zelebration to the gentleman an abuse is becomes in the celebration at the people altar the rule, from which no priest can really withdraw itself.

It is to be also noted nota bene that the mentioned and necessary „quiet chamber “of the mountain lecture primarily with the priest, much less however with the believers was questioned. The believers each other still turn in the banks of the very most churches the back.

Naturally it gave the attempt also in the so-called modern building of churches to arrange the people of God in the circle or semi-circle. But fast it got around itself that it does not behagt many Kirchgängern particularly, if them during the fair from opposite into the laundry is looked.

Nothing the defiance is the Zelebration to the people also opposite the believers injustice, although the introduction of the people altar with the argument was justified that the priest humans should have been closer (or in reverse).

One was obviously endeavored to repair with this innovation an existing emotional or human deficit. It may quite be that in the 60's and in many countries an unhealthy human distance between parts of the Klerus and the church people existed before.

That internal church obviously led to numerous emotional setting, fears and an exaggerated respect attitude before the Klerus.

Against the background these bad states the priest, who arose after the council suddenly civil dressed and whom people in the face celebrated, as freeing was felt. At many places priests explained and believer after the introduction of the people altar, how doing good they would have felt the mutual eye contacts. Such reactions point indeed on the presence of a heavy deficiency in along-human handling.

It is however questionable whether the entitled attempt of the removal of this deficiency should be realised by the introduction of the Meßzelebration to the people.

Because with to and for itself of eye contacts between priests and believers, for whom there are many opportunities in the pastoralen execution of the priest outside of the fair, the eye contact of the priest with the presence of all all this was lost to commendable admission in the most crucial act of the church execution.

The certainly necessary contact with the believers was bought at a wrong place and at a price, which is much too high.

Because with the attained eye contact the priest intercepts now also views of the believers, which should actually be arranged on the presence of the gentleman and on the happening of the holy fair.

Thus the priest actually tears into the Liturgie the role of the leading actor, which he might stress as causa instrumentalis, as tool of God, never.

Genuine and deep emotional gang are certainly indispensable indications of the Christian love.

But with the Zelebration the holy fair it goes around something more fundamental, i.e. around the sakramentale meeting with Christ, which does not realize itself in the holy fair primarily over the meeting with humans.

The summary: The Zelebration of the fair to the people is understandable from the conditions at that time of the 60's a wrong track year.

Forty years after the last council is it at the time to re-establish the correct liturgical order.


Don Reto Nay is a helping out priest in Moldavia.

Its contribution appeared in the publication „everyday Sakralarchitektur in Vienna starting from 1960 “

Heidemarie Seblatnig
Everyday Sakralarchitektur in Vienna starting from 1960
WUV 2006, 96 sides, various färbige illustrations, paperback
ISBN 3-85114-977-7
EUR 21.90 [A]/EUR 21.30 [D]/sFr 38,50

Christian Hüller: Measuring celebration bad states

The article has which for itself.

Devotion, silence, being astonished, worshipping versus Unergriffenheit, Rabbatz, Singsang and empty excessive desire for action - some one does not become this contrast
s o to see want.

Wenn's now however w A h r would at least be,
t e i l w e i HE?

Some Christians know anyhow exactly, where you go on Sunday into the fair.

stat crux: Bernado, free LG0 suppl.

Friendly thanks for specifying. Very importantly that the Transsubstanziationsbegriff has the purpose to differentiate from magic Voirstellungen to: Not bread IS God, but a conversion of the nature carries out itself; Worshipping is entitled to Christ, not the Akzidenzien.

Wendelin Vollmer: God all all this

I think that both the article as well as numerous reader contributions assume simply priests of the catholic church are a special „caste “and must remain. In addition the following:
1. For instance a third of the priests are fathers of children. The Diözesen is responsible for it. Only with the third child there can be problems.
2. Who without debt is, throw the first stone…
3. I celebrate the holy fair with all present ones. I am not ashamed of the emotion of the seizureness to pour with the Geheimis of the transformation tears.
4. To Bernado's pointer: The presence of God in the Altarsakrament is fundamental. Those is not less important brother shank with Christ: Which you did not do your next one, you did not do to me.
5. The today's time is a time of global communication. We select the suitable priest candidates and strengthen we them in this challenge. Or do we want to leave the field simply to different?
It may not be dedicated to everyone to the priest, who has otherwise no social chance. If it must remain „the priest caste “.
6. Christ put on „his “church on future. It can and will not be that the last 40 years are a crime of church history. We have respect!
7. Which is frequently represented here and discussed, hardly anyone understands in the municipalities and already not at all on the globe. We e.g. forget thereby the Eminenzen, which represent their position with Champangnerglas and gel honour SAMness.

Bernado: Material presence

Free LG0 suppl. wrote: “„physical presence “is misleading. Medieval theologians did not develop the term of the Transsubstantiation in vain. “

That is correct - I would have written perhaps better „real presence “, in order to address the specific difference in relation to dern other kinds of the presence of God in its creation and/or in its church.

With the medieval terms I am often not so happy - and straight „substance “is well suitable to illustrate. „Substantia “designates the internal nature, the ontologischen core of a thing - and that does not have to agree by far with the outward appearance, which is coined/shaped by „the Akzidenzien “.

Today's thinking is this distinction no longer spontaneously accessible, more still, if one speaks today of „substance “, means one rather the whole of from the outside recognizable and scientifically recordable characteristics of a subject, which define this subject for its part - „akzidentien “become to the substance, and the old „substantia “turns out completely from the view.

Instead of introducing here always new and ever more complex conceptualnesses, I tend to the modesty. „That is my body “speaks the priest as old Christ over bread - thus is it like that. Like that to be in detail fumnktioniert we, if at all, probably to only then recognize if we left our body only.

Dr. Christoph Heger: @stat crux

Msgr. Gamber had surely in some right; but the unconditionality of the positions is counter productive m.E; to the hand coming union there are e.g. good remarks with Otto nut tree (compilation 1996).

It went around the Zelebrationsrichtung, whose change Gamber kept for still more serious than the introduction of the Novus Ordo.

But which is to have said Gamber wrong to the hand coming union?

MfG
Christian OF Heger

Maledica: To play

@Freinsberg

Klaus Gamber is valid in the Liturgiewissenschaft as more unreliably researcher oh!
If you say, that will probably be correct!
Only cardinal Ratzinger sees that a little to differently only a little.
By the way this cardinal is today world-wide admits under a pseudonym!!!

Which concerns the so-called Zelebrationsrichtung, I would be already glad, if one did not out-play against each other „to the people “and „to God “. Uiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
We play only revolution and destroy a 1.900jährige tradition and then may we the destruction work not in question place.
Tunes in question to place may we naturally only these dusty rites, which us since centuries in obligations.
Link tactics:
Apart from the truth we do not set up still another thesis and then discuss we a little rum however we may then naturally nothing against each other out-play and the last „truth “lie then in the center!
Of the truth does not remain agitating however then after so several times any longer much remaining…