Today is the 450. Day of death of the holy Ignatius of Loyola. After so long time the medal founder with mixed feelings might down-look on his Jesuiten. A discussion between the generations.

Holy Ignatius: The goal of the Exerzitien consists of forcing themselves and arranging its life - without itself by any unordered inclination determine letting.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: High-worthy father, one notices that you lie for 450 years underground. In our time the self identification plays a large role. How can we speak killing there of self denial or „“?

Holy Ignatius: That demands Christ of us. Are certain: In the long run one can argue only under one of two banners:

Banner belongs to Christ - the highest commander. It establishes itself in the area of Jerusalem, at an inconspicuous place, but in the shape of beauty and beauty.

Other banner belongs to the devil. It sits generally speaking army camps of Babylon on a large throne from fire and smoke - a shape of shower and fright.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: My entrance, dear Iñigo, is different. I believe that the meeting with Zen can help us to discover the certainly important aspect of the self denial again up-to-date.

A contemporary Zen master describes in such a way:

„Is non--even. Is absolutely non--even. If you really non--even are, is there then a difference between you and the world?

At any price you must be first really non--even. That is the first and absolute condition in the Zen. If you die, then really die. If you die really thoroughly and completely, then you have lives and death exceeded. Then for the first time free and creative Zen life and working are unfolded. “

Holy Ignatius: Very interesting, the Zen master. But in the Christian religious life it goes neither over even nor over non--even. It goes around the creator and around the service for it, by which we make progress in the own soul.

The more the soul to its creator commits itself in such a way, all for more makes it ready, of its divine and highest quality grace and gifts to receive itself.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: For me Zen became an assistance beyond all well learned formulas over release of the secret of God to be presented.

Holy Ignatius: My son, it is not completely clear me, as one can oppose in such a way „the well learned formulas over release “to the secret of God.

The view needs the welfare and as concrete article. One cannot regard without understanding. But the understanding needs the formulas of the gospel and the church, in order to know Christ.

Then we must imagine Christ present and hanging on the cross and hold with it a discussion: As he as a creator to it came, to humans to make themselves and of the eternal life around temporal death down-rise and for my sins die in such a way.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: Also the Zen master already quoted has his view as Buddhist of Christ death and resurrection:

„I believe to exceed that resurrection Jesu means to die in the human meat life and death, to become again alive and as a son of God. It is mysterious working of God to create the new and true world. “

Holy Ignatius: I am not safe me whether I understood: The son of God is Jesus Christ - not the Zen master. Or?

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: Oh father, see nevertheless: Which happens during the process of Zen meditation, can a Christian teach to discover in the own tradition God again not as a dead word, but as an alive experience.

In addition me this experience taught also a large respect before Buddhisten.

Holy Ignatius: That I want to believe you gladly. But are here first over something else: in order the danger, of the bad enemy from the substantial to be diverted.

This enemy behaves like a captain and a leader in the field, the position refers and forces and situation of the castle spies, in order to then attack it in the weakest place.

Likewise it also everything umschleicht our theological, kardinalen and moral virtues. Where he finds, there leads us weaker and more unprotected for our eternal welfare he its impact against us and trachtet us to take.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: Admitted: Zen meditation is a buddhistische form of meditation.

When I turned to this way more intensively, an experience happened to me, on which I had before never counted, which I divide however with many, which went this way.

Suddenly I had to state that I had begun to think and feel buddhistisch. I admired the Buddha, as I had admired Christ before.

And I understood my religious experience in buddhistischen terms - thus as an experience of „Buddha nature “and „emptyness “, at one time better than with the terms, which I had learned in Christian theology.

Holy Ignatius: „To the Türe of the other one inside and to the own outside “- one said Jesu to my time in the society. But dear Pater, the opposite seems to have happened to you.

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: I must confess that I had first difficulties to deal with my experience. But then I noticed that I understood at one time when celebrating a service much more than before.

The happening of the Eucharist became me more transparent on God, than it ever before had been. I began to understand, what release is, in a way, like I had understood never before it, despite all studies of theology.

During the reading of the Bible it was like a new revealing for me. By I my Christian thinking and feeling left and in the Buddhismus inside had gone me, I had become a better Christian.

I continued the way of the Zen, and in the meantime began to give Zen courses. There are not few Jesuiten, which practice Zen.

Holy Ignatius: As I see, I did not finish learning also after 450 years skies yet. To my time I sent still the Franz Xavier to India and China, in order to bring to the there Götzendienern the light of Christ. In my society did the light go out? Or did my Asia mission acres return as Buddhisten?

Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ: Reliably it plays a large role that Pater Hugo Makibi Enomiya Lassalle SJ († 1990) admits this form of meditation in the west made.

But I believe that it still more connections gives. Let-letting let-leaving had already pointed out that the form of the Zen courses has many similarities with your Exerzitien.

Holy Ignatius: That makes me happy. Because in my Exerzitien only is around looking for to the welfare of the soul the divine will to find and to bring it the divine majesty.


Pater Stefan Bauberger SJ (46) attained a doctorate in physics and teaches nature philosophy and science theory at the university for philosophy in Munich. He is appreciative Zen master and teaches at different places of Germany Zen meditation.

Its statements in the fictitious discussion with its medal founder originate essentially from an essay from July 2001, published in the quarter writing of the Jesuiten for South Germany „to our friends “.

The quotations of Ignatius of Loyola († 31 July 1556) essentially originate from its Exerzitienbüchlein.

Frasim: to the topic

I was recently even with the SJ in pc. Georgen, Frankfurt. Which I experienced there, me sadly tuned. The understanding of priest, measuring victim etc. is totally distorted and watered. Main thing is the transmission of the Patres there… Everywhere, only then radiate not correctly. There spontaneously the Gleichnis occurred to me, where Jesus says that one does not place the light also under the Scheffel. SJ today is the salt, which became flat, one it away will throw and zertreten! Poor Ignatius, which you suffer probably for your medal?!? Ask for it, us and the whole world!

Jörg Guttenberger, Cologne: Bernardo

They still supplement the remarks of Benedikt around the criterion „Mystik “.

Furthermore you bring the pair of opposites objectivism and subjectivism, thus among other things two to ideologies, around which M.E do not go., because an ideology of the reality cannot become fair.

Example: we can over each humans objectively correct statements make, without becoming fully fair, so much these statements general commitment enjoy it with our objectivity. We can show our own subjective experiences over the same humans to become fully fair again without it to divide so much we also a more or less large part of our experiences with others.

Seems important to me from there to connect in connection of objectivity and subjectivity (thus not objectivism and subjectivism) with the Verkündigung the objective picture of the writing with our own subjective experiences. How are we to give differently a personal faith certification? The latter is however in demand.

The church should analyze the Verkündigung Jesu of Christ once under this criterion: how was the accent setting between objectivity and subjectivity in his Verkündigung and that the Apostel? She should ask herself seriously whether the Ideologisierung leads from objectivity to objectivism to a sometimes blood-empty faith notice and is jointly responsible like that for emptying the churches.

Bernado: Esotorik

At the end of October to last yearly a local kath. priest in the context of his otherwise convincing lecture stated, just as, as at that time the reformation the main enemy of the r. - k. Church was, is it today the Esoterik. I was to some extent surprised!

I ask around differentiation. Esoterik has strong mystische courses - the church knows also, even if it meets them occasionally with caution. And that has its reason: Mystik goes, that is now times their nature, very strongly from the individual and their experiencing. That contains the constant danger to turn out on wrong tracks. To live not Christ and its gospel, but itself.

The latter however almost is into the modern Esoterik the determining element: The mental world of all times and world areas as quarry to the production from elements to own building, relativism and Eklektizismus in pure culture.

The catholic church represents in contrast to this a clear objectivism: God is geoffenbart, with authority conciliatory and (within this framework) recognizable reality.

Those are deep contrasts. Whether they make the Esoterik equal to „the main enemy “for the church, I do not know however.

Jörg Guttenberger, Cologne: Maledica

The remarks from Aphrodite to this topic I follow.

Their statement is far more polarize-mixes, than understanding essentially.

The disappearance of the understanding unfortunate in the result of the Gottesgnadentum of the monarchy was clearly a long-term result of the clearing-up. Because that a ruler confounds his own bird with the pigeon of the holy spirit and also still divine gloss seeks to give this mistake, it is directly intolerable. The Dekadenz of the aristocracy at that time (adultery as pastime!) is hopefully well-known you!

Over today throughout the wrong council understanding I several times wrote ausführlch. See there!

I can leave it from there with this short statement.

aphrodite †: Learn philosophy history!

Thus honestly to compare the Aquinaten with partial hard de Chardin is like that as the Christian world with the Islamic…
Probably ever of the fact it does not belong that the Aristoteliker Thomas von Aquin the texts of the Aristoteles rezipierte over switching by Arab scholars (Avicenna, Averroes etc.)?
Well well, but do not surprise does me your Unwissen…

Maledica: Spirituality?

we would have without clearing-up the same Verältnisse, as in the Middle Ages and today still in Islam.Die Islamic world are probably not with the Christian comparable.
The Koran is a book of the terror and the suppression.
The holy writing is the book of the love
Here already times the conditions are not comparable
By the way the Middle Ages were not dark but from a bloom, a departure and a research coined/shaped in the West

The condemnation partial hard by Pius XII. dogma never was and is outdated by the council. Sorry, I gas: Owing to the council everything is which 1962 years before was outdated

Today also of the church that partial hard explained the faith exactly the same on scientific basis, as Thomas's von Aquin with philosophy is recognized as far as possible. That would be probably an infamous offense of the Doctor Angelicus.
Thus honestly to compare the Aquinaten with partial hard de Chardin is like that as the Christian world with the Islamic…

Encyclicals take position without requirement for infallibility to matters of time and can by the development be overhauled. It is correct who today from tomorrow it is that is the day after tomorrow already from yesterday.
Thus with the time go always beautifully! Who goes with the time, goes with the time!

We may not do us the development of the tradition lock-exactly, therefore humans are also not until today so pious owing to the Aggiornamento and go Sundays in the forest walking. Then the Förster may bury bals on Friedwäldern